Too "small"? ------------- Dec 9, 2004 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] cosmac elf question craigsherenow wrote: > other than making lights flash what can you do with a elf? Good heavens! This is like asking what you can do with a microcomputer! To most people, "computer" means the PC sitting on their desk. For all their power, they are really just an appliance. It only does what the manufacturer wants it to do, and it only runs software that someone else wrote. Now, there is a *lot* of hardware and software out there for it -- maybe all you care about. But, what if you wanted to do something different? Think of a PC like a radio. A super-duper radio, that can receive any station, anywhere in the world! You can listen to thousands of programs! Even save them, to listen later, again and again! Any music you want, any time, as many times as you want it! What reason could there be to have anything else? But, what if you are musician? You want to *create* new music, not listen to someone else's music. You want a musical instrument, like a guitar; not a computer. Now, a guitar is vastly simpler than a computer. But in the hands of skilled artist, you can make great music, much better than that which comes out of the tinny speakers on your computer. The 1802 is like this -- it's a musical instrument for "playing" with the hardware and software. You use it to do things that are NOT done by conventional PC. By being vastly simpler than a PC, you can get right down to the most basic level. Things become easy that would be horribly difficult and complicated on a PC. So... what'dya want? A radio or a guitar? :-) Jan 26, 2005 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Re: 1802 ZX81 leealanhart mc71de wrote: > ..it is by no way easy to learn [the 1802]. You run into > its limits too soon. Easy-to-learn implies that there are limits! The whole *point* is to deliberately have a small, limited, restricted subset specifically so it is easier to learn. > >[Lee Hart:] This would be in stark contrast to the PICs, ARMs, and > > all the other modern chips, which you essentially have > > to be a professional engineer to use. > > Nonsense. > Simple dev board for an Atmel: <$20... Everything you described [in a typical microprocessor development system] is exactly what a professional engineer would want. [But] a beginner wouldn't even know what the heck you were talking about. Look at the original Popular Electronics ELF articles, or the RCA Microtutor or VIP. They were expressly written and designed for people with ZERO computer experience, and ZERO computer hardware. Rank beginners. *ALL* of the modern micros assume a considerable amount of computer experience, and access to considerable computer hardware. While their on-chip memory and peripherals are very powerful, they also make consideralble demands on the skill level needed to use them. BASIC Stamp BASICs aren't "basic" at all, and bear essentially no relationship to the actual BASIC language -- I think they just use the name "BASIC" for marketing reasons because it implies "simple". They all use surface mount chips, and assume NO home or hobby construction. They are designed for professionals, not hobbyists. >> [Lee Hart:] Maybe this FPGA directly executes Pittman's IL code, so it >> runs Tiny BASIC as its native language. > Then, you will lose TB's easy expandability. No, because Tiny BASIC is written in IL. You could also write Logo or FORTH or some other language in IL (though it is optimized for interpreted languages). > What's bad with taking one of the existing BASICs? If it comes > hard-on-hard, you could even give them MS Word and teach its macro > language. There's a reason that it is called Visual Basic for > Applications. Depending on what you want to do, it is quite suitable. I'm talking about a computer like the ZX-81, which is *meant* to be used by a first-time novice, with no previous hardware or software experience. By its very nature, it has to be exceptionally easy to use understand and use, even when that means sacrificing power, speed, and flexibility. All these modern languages require considerable computer power and resources to run them, and demand considerable experience and expertise on the part of the user. I guess my thesis is that "kids today don't program because they don't have any computers that make it fun and easy to learn how." > [The IL code is extensible] only if you run it as interpreted language > on a 'Meta Micro' No; it is extensible even on an 1802 ELF, as Richard has shown by adding new keywords.